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11 Feb 2010 03:20 pm
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None. People die from lack of oxygen to the brain, mostly.
Question about the study did the include the number of people who would have died as a result of having health insurance?
There must be some number people with (for example) the type of lower back pain that gets better on its own who, because they had health insurance, went to the doctor, had surgery and ended up dead for a post-op infection.
Or someone (again perhaps a small number of people) who went to the Dr. and demanded antibiotics to combat the flu and died as a result of an allergic reaction the drugs.
In both cases it is likely that if these people didn't have insurance they wouldn't have gone to the doctor, their issues would have resolved themselves and they would still be alive.
Don't forget the people who have heart attacks while yelling at their insurance company.
Then again, I imagine that more than a few people who take those phone calls end up with ulcers and who knows what else. That must be a miserable job...
I'd kind of like it myself. Zero accountability! How can your boss complain about you pissing customers off?
Now THAT'S looking at the bright side of things...
How many "insured" Canadians die, or suffer on waiting lists, despite being "covered"? Honestly, I have no idea, but I can't imagine how it could be non-trivial.
How many Brits die because the NHS won't pay for advanced cancer drugs? Who knows. How many Americans die because their private insurers are similarly stingy? Again, who know, but probably some.
Really, we are not arguing about delivering or increasing healthcare - we are arguing about who pays for it and who manages it. Neither of the bloated bills will result in more doctors, more nurse practitioners, more community clinics, or anything else that would deliver more actual medical care.
By definition, all Canadians who die do so in spite of being covered.
If you ever meet someone who works/worked at Roswell Park Cancer Institute, ask them how many Canadians did they see.
RPCI is in Buffalo, just over the Peace Bridge from Ontario. It's routinely rated as one of the top 5 cancer institutes in the USA. It's also a 5 minute drive from the border once you're through customs. Even from Toronto, in normal traffic, it's 2 hours.
I wouldn't post this if I didn't know the answer...
Here's an innocuous link that's the tip of the iceberg:
http://www.roswellpark.org/Site/Patient_Care/Welcome_Canadian_Visitors
The real question is: what do the Canadians who don't happen to live so close to the US Border do when they're told "you don't qualify for this treatment," or "we don't offer that."
You already know the answer.
One of the biggest fears that opponents to the Obama plan have is the same thing happening to us.
Your link does not provide any numbers at all. And by the way, the vast majority of Canadians who receive healthcare in the US do so because they live, work or vacation here (for the latter, consider Florida snowbirds from Canada-- in St Pete there is even a special healthcare clinic for them that takes Canadian national health payments-- if they were appalling low how can that clinic stay in business in the US?) I don't have a link, but I have seen studies that show only a few hundred Canadians come to the US for healthcare without some other reason to be here already. From a nation of 30 million that is trivial. And how many Americans purchase drugs from Canada?
No numbers. I'm just pointing out that there are enough Canadians coming down that there's a whole area for it.
I daresay you won't find a link like that in many Canadian hospitals.
And we're talking about Buffalo, not St. Pete. There aren't a lot of Canadians who save up all year just to spend two weeks in August in Buffalo (although the surrounding area, as well as the lake, really is quite fun in the summer).
These people are coming down to get treatment that they can't get in Toronto. Not Tehran or Tijuana: Toronto - one of the most developed regions on earth.
Canada doesn't have a military, to all intents and purposes. The US Coast Guard is significantly larger and more powerful thatn the Canadian Navy. Thus Canadians have an enormous benefit, fiscally, living next to the most powerful military on the planet.
And yet even with THAT kind of a head start on their annual budget, they can't afford to offer their citizens the same kind of health care that the citizens of Buffalo routinely receive.
Canada has chosen to go with "median man" coverage. Highly prescribed drugs are subsidized and sold at very low prices. All true.
But when you live in Canada and a common drug won't cut it, just hope that you don't need something really special. When you're not the median person, the whole "justice" thing doesn't sit well in your stomach.
I cannot tell you how many Canadian friends I have who were liquidating property, organizing fund raisers, etc. just to pay for the care that their government wouldn't pay for.
Because by the time that care is coming from a place like RPCI, it's the only shot they have left.
"the same kind of health care that the citizens of Buffalo routinely receive."
I laughed out loud a bit when I read this. Which citizens of Buffalo? Certainly not all of them as a large swath of Americans cannot afford treatment like this, regardless of payment plans and any number of special repayment concessions that may be in place.
I love the myth that everybody from the rest of world comes to America to get the best medical treatments. Wealthy people from the rest of the world come here to receive the best medical treatments. Here's the study I'd like to see: the net assets of the Canadians who head over to Buffalo, et al for treatment verses those of their fellow canucks.
"I cannot tell you how many Canadian friends I have who were liquidating property, organizing fund raisers, etc. just to pay for the care that their government wouldn't pay for."
Remove the word "government" here and you have the situation for many in the US. So I really don't see what your complaint is.
Serfer, most people have fairly deep reserves they can call on if need be(and a life-threatening illness qualifies as "need be", I'd wager). Yeah, $50k(say) out of pocket hurts, but if the alternative is dying, I'd wager 80-90% of the population can manage the $50k.
Heh. Or those who happen to be Premier of Newfoundland.
Here is the reality where I live. Greater area, maybe 80,000 people. There isn't a 24 hour staffed emergency ward, as in surgeon, etc. If you want an MRI or similar diagnostic procedure, you wait 3-4 months. If you want it sooner, Spokane is close. And they will bill the provincial government, and bill you whatever they can't get in a few months time.
Once you are in hospital, in the pre surgery ward, you will get top notch care. It is the waiting that kills you.
Derek
You ignore the other real question, i.e. "what do the Canadians who cannot afford treatment in the US do?"
You already know the answer: they get treatment. Maybe not the most cutting edge procedure, but at least they get treatment.
I have yet to see anyone deny that you can get the best health care in the world in the US, provided that you can pay for it (there may be some muddle-headed extremist out there saying that, but I haven't seen it).
I believe this will always be the case, and that's okay provided that everybody has access to some baseline of care. Those with the means will always be able to top up the baseline care. What I strongly object to is the number of Americans who must be denied care so that some other percentage of people can get the marginally better treatment.
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